Public Fat Shaming is not Good Marketing

Published March 31, 2013 by sleepydumpling

Well hello!  I haven’t forgotten or abandoned you all, I promise.  Life has been intensely busy and I made a promise to myself at the beginning of this year that I would pace myself better and not work myself into the ground with both my activism and my day job.  So you will be getting less posts from me but I’m sure they’ll be better quality in the long term.

I actually had another post written and ready to publish, but something else has cropped up that I would like to talk about.  On Thursday night, as part of the local Bluewater festival here on the bay, there was an event at Shorncliffe called Bayfire.  I decided to take myself along to it to have a look at the markets, get some dinner and watch the fireworks.  I wandered up there and had a look around, bought some very cute hair accessories from a small business called Princess Perfect Clips, tried Transylvanian cheese pie for dinner (verdict – rather tasty) and then watched the fireworks.

When the fireworks were finished, I decided to go and have a look at the rest of the markets.  As I was walking along the waterfront where the stalls all were, minding my own business, someone shoved something in my hands.  I looked down and it was a flyer for some ridiculous weight loss product, which was basically wrapping bits of your body in cling film.  I turned towards the woman who had stuffed it in my hand without asking me if I wanted it, and there they were, a bunch of seriously miserable looking women, all with their arms or middles wrapped in cling film.

I couldn’t believe anyone would be so rude to shove weight loss propaganda into the hands of someone who was not in any way inviting them to do so.  So I tore up the flyer very deliberately right in front of them, making sure they were all watching me, and tossed it into a bin, and walked away.  I was so pissed off.

A bit later I decided to get some dessert, and I decided to share this picture of my dessert on my social media sites (Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook) with the following caption:

Screen Shot 2013-03-31 at 12.35.15 PM

Om nom nom, right?

Well, I didn’t imagine the shitstorm it would create on Tumblr.  Mostly because some people seemed to take personal offense that I wasn’t “allowing anyone to be encouraged on their weight loss goals”.

Now how my protesting some company forcing their material on to fat women (they were not shoving the flyers in the hands of men or thin people) to shame them equals “not allowing anyone to be encouraged on their weight loss goals”, I’m fucked if I know.  After all, I don’t give two fucks what other people do to their own bodies.  This has got nothing at all to do with other people’s bodily choices.  What this has to do with is the public shaming of fat women to make money.  What this has to do with is some woman wrapped in cling foil selling a phony diet product deciding that the fat woman walking past her has a body that is “unacceptable” and she can make a buck off that fat woman by flogging her snake oil product.  This is about someone selling a product assuming that as a fat woman that I must be unhappy with my body and want to spend my money on cling film to reduce it.

The other argument that people kept making is that it is “legitimate advertising” to single out fat women (again, they did not hand the flyers to men or thin people) in public and give them weight loss propaganda.

I am not sure what planet some people are living on.

To equate handing unsolicited weight loss flyers to fat people (and only fat people) to an ad on TV, in a magazine, on the radio or on the side of the street etc is fucked up.

Advertising in general is shitty, and needs to be spoken up against, but it’s not picking out an individual in a public place and physically handing them a flyer that says “Hey fat person, here’s a product you should buy to stop being a fat person because fat is gross.”  It’s not singling out someone who is minding their own business in public, to pass commentary on their body by recommending a product to reduce their body.

Imagine if I wasn’t the confident, self aware woman I am now.  To be singled out like this and handed such propaganda would have DEVASTATED me years ago.  I would have felt so upset that someone had pointed out my fatness in public and made commentary via their actions that my body was unacceptable.  How many other fat women had their night ruined on Thursday by being handed this shitty flyer while enjoying an evening out with their friends and/or family?  I don’t know about you, but most fat women I know don’t go out to a fair to find a weight loss solution, they go out to have fun and enjoy the shopping, dining and fireworks.

For some reason, it is believed by many people that weight loss peddlers actually care about us.  That they care about our happiness, our health and/or our bodies.  They don’t.  They care about obtaining our money.  They tell us our bodies are not acceptable, sell us a product that does not work, then blame us for failing, and sell us the product again, or a new product that does not work.   In Australia alone they make almost $800 million per year.  In the US, it’s $66 billion per year.  They are taking your money and laughing at you as they watch you blame yourself for their product or service failure.

Don’t stand for that shit.  Don’t let anyone dismiss what a horrible act it is to single out a fat person and try to shame them into buying a product.  Don’t let the weight loss industry brainwash you into believing that they care about you, or that they are doing anyone a public service by pushing their product on to people who never asked for it in the first place.

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51 comments on “Public Fat Shaming is not Good Marketing

  • Remember, you are not “too busy” nor trying to find a work/life balance, you are fat therefore you are too lazy to write your blog more often!!!!! Ha ha ha.

    So glad you are still writing, really helps me reading your opinion. Sooo sick of as you said, snake oil merchants with kooky weight loss shit, I was approached on a plane and at the airport when disembarking (same “company”) as this was the start of my honeymoon, it really hurt. I always get the “you could be almost pretty…if you lost weight, if you lost weight you would be nice looking, you have quite a pretty face….etc. So what did that make my husband? Stupid? Blind? Lovely lovely man, together 17 years, 2 beautiful girls ( don’t get me started on fat women being pregnant!)

    Love your work, keep it up. Margot

    • Indeed Margot – we fatties are never busy, just lazy!

      How can people be so blind to how insulting the old “you’d be so pretty if” line? In what universe is that either helpful or polite? Certainly not one I inhabit!

  • I couldn’t believe the uproar on tumblr about your simple photograph and caption. I thought the situation was understandable and anyone following you would be able to understand your frustration and your subsequent actions.

    Personally all I thought was, ‘Gee, it’s been awhile since I’ve had waffles – they sure are tasty, maybe I should have some for dinner’.

    It’s wrong that advertisers and marketers target groups like fat women for dieting products, they play off insecurities and make false promises of dieting success if you lose their product.

    I cannot understand how people think public shaming, of ANY KIND, is okay. But fat shaming almost seems to be encouraged in Australia.

    • It’s encouraged the world over it seems. Fat bodies have been so stigmatised that it is socially normal to shame complete strangers, friends, family, even colleagues about their bodies. It’s royally fucked up.

  • I was all “Waffles and ICE CREAM?! Easter dinner is DECIDED.”

    (And how did I not know you were on tumblr? Followed!)

    I’m trying really hard to not be judgy to the woman who is taken in by the cling wrap, because I feel like she must have enough negativity in her life, but I’m failing. Because she violated so many guidelines for interacting politely with others and just NO. No one can excuse that shitty behavior and no one gets to tell you how you get to react to it, especially since your reaction was the BEST.

    • Yeah I don’t have a problem with people wrapping themselves in cling film if that’s what floats their boat (though they all looked so unhappy – everyone else at the event is smiling and laughing and having fun – except that stall with four very miserable expressions on four women) but when they start shoving propaganda in to my hands telling me that my body needs changing, then the gloves are off.

  • You’re not “allowing people to meet their weight loss goals?”
    Wasn’t you walking up to people shoving flyers into their hands!
    The utter temerity of some assholes!
    The individuals behind this weight loss scheme can’t even allow people to enjoy their time at a festival without being bothered.

  • I peripherally saw some of the said tumblr shitstorm and had a big case of “WTF”.HOW is ripping up an unwanted pamphlet such a bad thing? It’s not abusive or anything like that. I do the same thing with ANY peddler of stuff who tries to get my unsolicited business. If I’m walking PAST your stall, I’m not interested in whatever you’re selling – this goes for those booths in the middle of mall corridors also. If I was interested in your product, I’d be approaching you. On a good day, they get a polite “sorry, not interested” response, or are ignored. On a bad day – they get told just that: “If I wanted information I would have asked you.” I think that “just doing their job” is the shittiest defense of shitty behavior – NO job should involve street harassment. There’s PLENTY of negative body messages out there, I’m certain the booth would get enough walk-ins without needing to force their crap on anyone.

    • Oh I **hate** those booths in the middle of shopping centres and malls. As far as I’m concerned, harassing people in public is no better than harassing them over the phone or by knocking on their door. I hate that marketing has got like this. I will not spend any money with businesses that do those things on principle.

  • Honestly, the response to that post seemed to me like it was just an excuse to “call you out” somehow and make you look bad. You said nothing inflammatory, the post was relateable, and included images of delicious food that practically looked like art. The response to it just baffles me. I can’t imagine anyone would be ragging on someone for doing the same thing to a flier about – I dunno – car repairs, or even those evangelical “you’re going to hell” fliers people hand out in the CBD sometimes.

  • Yesterday I offered a friend (who I didn’t know was dieting) an Easter Egg. That’s it. An Easter Egg. AT Easter. She went crazy at me. She told me I should “know better” than to offer her an Easter Egg and “how dare I try to take her off her path to weight loss and health”. I actually asked her (incredulously) what she was talking about.
    I can’t stand weight loss propaganda. Years ago it made me feel like shit, regularly. Today? Well, today I know too many women who hate their own bodies because people (let’s face it – mostly strangers) tell them they should. Like, that’s their whole, shitty marketing mandate; they make women feel like shit through Fat Shaming and Body Hating.
    I’m not on Tumblr. Anyone who knows you or reads your blog here often enough wouldn’t have responded in the shitstormy manner you’ve described. Far out. This post has made me so angry – at the people who gave you the flyer at the fair – but also – by the reactionary arseholes who scream on Tumblr, not realising – that your post wasn’t about them or anyone else’s weightloss but rather public shaming with an end goal of profit. Just wow.

    • Jesus you didn’t try to force the Easter egg down her throat!

      You know, I can remember when I was like that. So full of self loathing that I thought EVERYONE was trying to jeopardise my one shot at being worthwhile… getting thin.

  • I spent yesterday morning manning a booth at the local farmer’s market. We were trying to drum up interest and participation in the local American Cancer Society Relay for Life, raising money to fund cancer research and support systems for cancer patients and their caregivers. I approached people with flyers and asked them if I could talk to them. I handed out bubbles and buttons to kids. I talked until my throat was raw and stood on the asphalt of the street until I thought my knees were going to shatter.

    But here’s what I did NOT do: force my promotional materials on anyone who showed no interest, shame people for not wanting to take a flyer, continue talking to someone who hurried past with their head down saying ‘no thanks, I’ve already got one’. Yes, we did hear that phrase several times. And my promotional materials were not there for the specific purpose of making people feel their bodies were inadequate or their life choices were bad simply because they weren’t mine. They were there to offer those on the lookout information on how they could aid a worthy cause.

    I’ve torn up many an unsolicited, unwanted flyer someone has shoved into my hands against my will. I do not accept weight loss scheme ads, religious tracts about how I’m going to a hell I don’t believe in because I don’t worship a specific deity in a specific way, flyers for rallies against the things I believe in with all my heart like marriage equality, anything I consider racist or sexist, or conspiracy theories I find entirely crackpot. You know, like that guy from my hometown who used to have a van from whence he would tell anyone who didn’t run fast enough all about how Steven King and the CIA assassinated John Lennon and hired Mark David Chapman as their willing fall guy.

    But you know what? My tearing those things up, even in full view of the people who forced them on me, does not in any way stop anyone who would believe in what they have to offer. I’m sure there are people who read Chick pamphlets and fall on their knees to beg Jesus’s forgiveness, and people who eagerly line up to hate gays and lesbians and bisexuals for wanting to marry whom they please, and buy the latest weight loss ‘miracle’ that will finally make their bodies socially acceptable. Hell, I’m sure that guy in the van has found people who agree with him that the CIA would recruit one of the most famous authors in the world to kill one of the most famous rock stars in the world… and nobody would notice.

    After all, there are still people who believe Paul McCartney died in 1966. And that Elvis is happily living with the survivors of the Roswell UFO crash.

    As far as I’m concerned, yours is the only rational response to the situation. A public ‘fuck you’ followed by delicious waffles and ice cream sounds entirely rational. Mmm… plus strawberries. Yum.

    If there’s such a thing as free will, then the choice to either use the information handed to one or to rip it up and throw it in the trash is ours. My choice to toss homophobic screeds does not affect the ability of someone else to accept the same concept and join the hate. Your choice to eat waffles and ice cream does not impinge on another person’s right to wrap themselves in plastic wrap in hopes that it will magically make them thin.

    BTW, that’s not even something new. There was an episode of Emergency back in about 1972 or 73 where a woman had passed out and when the heroic paramedics arrived to help her out, they discovered she’d wrapped most of her body in plastic wrap to lose weight and had cut off her pores’ ability to breathe, hence the passing out from lack of oxygen.

    Forty years later, I still think it’s a crackpot idea.

    • Twistie, you say it all so beautifully! Where are you writing these days that Manolo is gone??

      I remember seeing the cling wrap thin in The Full Monty. Poor Dave felt like a chicken drumstick!

      That’s the thing too – there were dozens of businesses and organisations represented there at the markets – including a department of the local city council. The ONLY one who forced their paraphenalia on me was the cling wrap crew. Everyone else was offering their flyers and cards, not forcing them.

      • Thanks, hon. I’m writing… well, mostly in the comments section of other peoples’ blogs right now with a side of getting back into fan fiction. I actually offered fanfic in exchange for Relay donations on my LiveJournal. I was amazed the account was still active, but I got four donations that way. Oh! and I’m writing a book on how to self-cater your wedding. We’ll see if I can drum up some interest in that. I haven’t seen anything quite like it on the market, so I have hopes.

        Damn! I can’t believe I forgot that scene in The Full Monty! Even before I found FA, the scene that always made me wibble and tear up is when Dave asks his wife who would want to see him dance and she simply says ‘me.’ His fear and her love were both so raw and real in that scene. I need to watch that film again… and again… and again.

  • I check your blog every day and I was getting worried that you had quit. Glad to see you’re back. And yes, talking about diets should be like talking about bowel movements (private, between you and your doctor and nobody’s damn business).

    • Ahh Jessica, I’m still alive and ok. Just had a big project at work that has been kicking my arse. I promise I won’t go anywhere without letting y’all know.

  • “not allowing anyone to be encouraged on their weight loss goals”

    You must have secret mind control powers.

    I seriously hate having flyers shoved in my hands and something like this would make me want to kick the people in the shins.

    I’m glad it didn’t spoil your fun and your food choices sound delicious.

    I’m kind of jealous because now that I’ve started to stop worrying about losing weight, I’ve discovered my body doesn’t deal with gluten, onions and garlic. Now I have to watch what I eat even more carefully. *rolls eyes*

    Do me a favor and enjoy some tasty food for me.

  • Ok so I’m confused, were they trying to “encourage you on your weight loss goals” or trying to “just do their job” with no regard to people’s fatness at all? ‘Cause there also seemed to be people with this whole another point of view (“it’s not personal, it’s what they have to do”). To which I say GOLLY GEE, they’re just trying to make some money? That must mean it’s acceptable then! Gotta love capitalism.

  • Oh man, I would have been so pissed if I were at my towns annual fair just trying to enjoy myself and that happened. Anyone with half a brain (or heart) would know better than to peddle weight loss products in that sort of place and atmosphere. So damn rude. Also, I remember a cousin of mine doing this cling wrap thing before and from what I understand it can actually be dangerous to you–people wrapping you too tight for too long can really hurt your insides.

    All that said, I just about wet myself over that picture–festival food is the best food.

      • Exactly! You know, I can understand how people can get caught up in certain diet crazes–especially pills since pills are apparently magic. But cling wrap? It’s such an obviously terrible idea that you’d really have to be in a bad place on the inside to think it wasn’t.

  • WTF? I really don’t understand how people can think that your personal reaction to something you personally found offensive can in any way, shape or form “discourage other people’s weight loss goals”! Your reaction has nothing to do with other people’s weight loss goals and everything to do with this company singling out and trying to shame fat women in order to make money which I agree is a completely unacceptable form of marketing.

    If a company stood outside a gay bar and handed out homaphobic “I can make you straight” literature there would be uproar so what makes people think it’s ok to do the same to fat women?!?

    Another brilliantly written article and as for the waffles – good for you, they look lush! (plans waflles for breakfast…)

    • Because they are so self focused that they think the whole world has to acknowledge their diet bullshit. That because they hate their bodies, we should hate ours.

  • I’m finding that the image of having something shoved into your hands difficult to get out of my mind. Depending on exactly how this was done, there might be a case for filing Assault charges, though it would vary by jurisdiction and getting enough witnesses for it to stick would be problematic.

    But it’s something for us to remember. Even if they are ‘just doing their jobs,’ they aren’t allowed to touch you without your consent. It might be a way to enforce the “back off!” message to those who just don’t get it.

    That waffle looks delicious! I had never thought to try ice cream on a waffle before.

    • Seriously?! Do you not know the amazing deliciousness that are waffle cones? Belgian waffles (or any kind of waffles, really, as long as they aren’t the pre-baked kind that come frozen from the supermarket) are just a warm, thicker, doughier version. Darn it, now I want a waffle with ice cream, but my kitchen is overrun with dirty dishes. :-(

    • There was no assault, nobody hurt me physically – they just thrust a piece of paper in front of me and out of reflex I put my hand up and next thing I was holding it.

  • see, i’d have gone back to the stall where the flyer was shoved into your hands and eaten the delicious ice cream and waffle right in front of them, and offered to tell them where a thing of such beauty could be purchased.

    and i’d have kept eye contact the whole time.

    but i’m kind of evil that way.

  • Never had waffles and ice cream but that does sound (and look!) delicious. But then, I think I would’ve torn up the flyer, too.

    But I’m not on Tumblr anymore. Given the puddles of stupid I’ve stepped in there (transracialism what), I’m somehow not surprised at the reaction of “You don’t want ANYBODY to lose weight”.

    Come to think of it, that logic from dieters has always struck me as odd, as if they need the whole of the world to attempt weight loss with them, and anyone who isn’t doing so must be trying to prevent their efforts. It’s a bizarre mindset indeed. I wish I could say more, but I can’t wrap my head around that idea, that everyone has to participate in a thing, and that non-participation is equal to non-support, if not downright sabotage.

    • You gotta rectify the never had waffles and ice-cream thing Rubyfruit, it’s delicious!

      You know, I both love and hate Tumblr. Yes, there is a high percentage of douchecanoes. But then, so is everywhere else on the internet – you just don’t see them most of the time because blog owners etc spend so much time moderating them out.

      That said, I have learned so much from people on Tumblr. I have been able to educate myself on so many topics and issues thanks to doors that people on Tumblr opened for me, and met so many awesome people too. It makes it worth it for me.

      Yeah I don’t get that thinking around dieters either. Are we fat people THAT powerful?

      • Yeah I don’t get that thinking around dieters either. Are we fat people THAT powerful?

        In reality, not so powerful as to actively stop people from dieting. In the minds of some dieters, quite powerful indeed. Because they have to necessarily believe that anyone who isn’t on the Diet Train is out to get them. The very idea that someone would just not want to partake isn’t even a concept to some dieters, I suppose.

        As for Tumblr, I’m really glad that you got something good out of it, but it’s not for me. Anything I’ve enjoyed about it is overshadowed by the few, but fairly big, things that leave such a bad taste in my mouth that it wasn’t worth it for me to stay. But like I said, that’s just me.

  • I’ve been fat and I’ve been thin and everything in between. It’s extraordinary how people feel absolutely free to comment on you, your life, your character, your “everything” when they perceive you as the dreaded F word.

    I can’t decide whether it’s worse when it’s your family or strangers. Either way, it’s ugly, unacceptable, counterproductive, and discriminatory.

    One more way in which we torment our women – especially – and from such an early age.

    Just discovered your site. Delighted I have.

  • I’m not sure why people seem to have trouble with the concept of bodily autonomy and the fact that if you engage another person (especially a stranger) either in conversation or through your actions, they do not owe you a positive response. I don’t know why so many dieters and advertisers think that not only is it okay to interact with complete strangers, but also expect us to appreciate when they offer unsolicited and rude opinions. (No, it’s not okay to do this to friends or family either, and they might tell you to shove it, too.)
    I LOVED your response though, and those waffles! Yummy!!

  • This is why I quit Tumblr, if it wasn’t just for Tumblr’s blatant lack of concern that they have blogs openly promoting eating disorders, or that they don’t even bother shutting down blatant cyberbullying websites, while acting as if changing the title and the look of a site has anything to do with the site’s actual content. Or Tumblr claiming patronizingly “Well sometimes people say bad things.” when you report harassment to them, as if they are calming down an overreacting child. I’d have a Tumblr,

    I honestly don’t understand Kath, why you have a Tumblr. They allow so much hate, they might as well be Reddit but prettier looking. I’m not surprised at all those who manage to post about their thin tears every time a fat person speaks of their oppression on Tumblr, attacked you for not being nice to the woman who was trying to make money off of your self-hatred. When has being kind to one’s oppressors benefited anyone? The person was just doing their job, they were ignorant, you might have hurt their precious feelings. Oh, right because fat people’s feelings are meaningless right? I doubt the peon they got to stand out there and hand out flyers cared less about what affect those messages could have on people, they just want their money.

    You know what I’d have done, I’d have kept the flyer, posted it on every fat acceptance site that would let me. I’d have people calling up the business and letting them know that they are harassing and contributing to a environment that promotes eating disorders. Let’s see if they’ll be handing out fliers next year at the fair. Our society hides the fact that eating disorders are on the rise, unlike the UK that actually sees it for what it is, a legitimate health problem. No, in the US you can never be too thin, and if you die thin well at least you’re pretty. I wish that we could get away with showing graphic imagery of people who died of eating disorders to these snake oil salesmen, I wish that every diet would come with a graphic warning that dieting could lead to eating disorders, the way cigarettes in some countries now are labeled with graphic imagery of people with Cancer. Maybe one day, we’ll see that happen.

    I ended up ranting and raving here, but it’s because we keep being nailed with the notion that being thin no matter how you get there equals health. I want the parents, relatives, and friends of loved ones who died starving to become thin to speak out, and tell their stories. We need to have something like a vigil for people who died from fat hatred, maybe then people would realize this is oppression, they are murdering fat people, by convincing them their lives are unworthy unless they are thin. How long is our society going to punish fat people for simply existing? That pushing people into weight loss, that leads to worse health over all, and eating disordered behavior is ok? This is what gets me the most about Tumblr, they want to talk about intersection, yet refuse to discuss how the obesity hysteria marginalizes fat people in the exact same way society has done so with other groups.

    Oh they’re not being murdered in full view, so it’s okay? That’s what I’ve heard on Tumblr, that it doesn’t matter if fat people died, they’re not being lynched outside their homes. They’re right, it’s so much different if they are pushed into being medically experimented on because they can’t get a job, have a social life, or live unless they’re thin. Fat people are dying, and they will continue dying if society doesn’t stop it’s war against fat people. Hey, you know what would make a great impact, let’s compare how many fat children have died in the past year to how many children were murdered at Newtown, maybe then people will listen.

    • I have a Tumblr because I’m an adult and can look beyond the surface to those who make a difference. Back up there with the judgement please. What you do or choose (or would do) doesn’t have to match what I do or choose.

  • I live in Hawaii now, but a few years ago I spent two years in Australia, on the Gold Coast, near Brisbane, which is where I think you live now. I loved the beaches, the birds and animals, and the people, except for one thing. They seemed much more willingly to openly criticize people for their appearance or actions than the people I knew in the US. Especially the men, who seemed more willing to express their negative opinions about my personality than any US man I ever met (including my husband),

    I remember one lady telling that if I expected to live in Australia I SHOULD have an answering machine. Never mind that I only planned to be there a few months and didn’t want to buy a lot of things that I would have to get rid of when I moved. I remember being so surprised that she felt entitled to dictate to me about my household appliances.

    This was one of my first experiences with people expressing their disapproval of my personal choices so openly.

    I am a fairly thin person with the associated thin privilege.I got interested in fat acceptance because I have two beloved cousins who wear size 4X and who have taught me a lot about accepting myself no matter what.

    I wonder if the Australian tendency to directly express disapproval (so unlike the Hawaiian tendency to never ever say critical things) makes things worse for fat people in Australia than it is here in Hawaii.

    • Donna I didn’t get anywhere near as much fat hate when I was in the US and Canada… though I know it does happen, I just experienced less. Whether my being Australian affected that, or that I was obviously a tourist… I don’t know. But I know it was definitely less.

      When I was in New Zealand last year, I got NONE at all. It was WONDERFUL, I got a true holiday – people were polite and friendly on the streets, nobody cat-called me or made any nasty comments, everywhere I went retail, tourism and hospitality staff made no acknowledgement of my size (unless I mentioned being there for the fat studies conference). It was a delight, really. As soon as I got on the plane home, the Australian woman in the seat beside me made a really bitchy comment. When I got out in Brisbane airport… some dick mooed at me as I walked past him.

      I think Australia currently has a disgusting air of self entitlement that opens some people up to thinking that they can behave however they like and it’s “just their opinion” or “freedom of speech”. It transfers through to other things as well, the amount of racism, sexism, and such is ridiculous at the moment.

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